Just returned from A'dam and can only say I'm very disappointed in what I saw. Windows closed, girls replaced by tailors dummies, more gangs of scum hanging around. For me the shine of visiting Amsterdam's Wallen has definitely vanished.

I think Mr Mayor will for sure do a hatchet job on A'dam. The reason why? Say to your mates "Amsterdam" then ask them what they first think of. Guaranteed they will either say "drugs" or "hookers".

Mr Mayor no longer wants that, he wants your mates to answer "fantastic architecture," "history," "scenic canals," "cosy bars," "Venice of the north" etc. etc.

Now, the clever board members, by that I mean the ones who venture outside the Wallen and indeed the ones who look between the coffee shops and neon lit windows will say " But I do appreciate all those things about A'dam, that's why I go, the entertainment is just the icing on the cake."

Unfortunately, my observations and conversations, tell me the majority of visitors will answer the original A'dam question with "drugs" or "hookers." Mr Mayor doesn't want packs of students or stag parties staying in cheap hostels spending their hard earned grants and wages on drugs and girls, Mr Mayor wants a better class of person visiting his city, and dare I say it, who can blame him.

Now this is going to sound strange BUT I actually agree with Mr Mayor. I would love to see the Wallen transformed into it's rightful position as the most picturesque, scenic, historic city in Europe. Free from countless coffee shops and kamers. Okay, keep a few decent, bigger coffee shops. Replace kamers with FKK style venues.

"What the f*** are you talking about?" I hear you say, but listen to this.

I, like most people on this board started their mongering days in A'dam, and I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, absolute heaven. Then I started to read about these things called FKK's, so I started to broaden my horizons. Now, the gamblers amongst you, especially those who dabble on the horses, will know all about the phrase "value for money." Put it like this, you can back a horse at 4/6 Fav, but will it offer value for money? Taking everything into consideration, would you be better off backing the 2/1 or 3/1 2nd Fav, now, does that offer better value for money?

If you want further proof of this 'value for money' take a look at the top posters for mongering on this site two or three years ago. Now look for them on the message board.

You won't find them under the A'dam section, but you will find them under other countries, in particular, under Germany and FKK's. The painful truth is, kamer girls do not offer value for money in the context of my above description. Most mongerers start out in A'dam and will naturally lead to FKK's and perhaps onwards and upwards to say Thailand, Rio, Dubai, Cambodia, Singapore, etc. etc.

I started off this piece by saying that I was disapointed with the current view of the Wallen and I've had to ask myself why? The only reason I have is that several years ago a set of emotions were firmly planted in my simple head that turned into very fond memories of A'dam. When I see those images disappearing before my very eyes I feel disapointed, BUT, everything must change and move on. I do believe A'dam will be better for Mr Mayors major clean up but I also pray people with much more influence than me can persuade Mr Mayor that the way forward to keep A'dam's entertainment history is the formation of FKK style venues.

Discuss.

Quote: "Now this is going to sound strange BUT I actually agree with Mr Mayor. I would love to see the Wallen transformed into it's rightful position as the most picturesque, scenic, historic city in Europe. Free from countless coffee shops and kamers. Okay, keep a few decent, bigger coffee shops. Replace kamers with FKK style venues."

Yes, this does sound strange! You'd "love to see the Wallen transformed into it's rightful position", which is what exactly? It's rightful position is surely what it has been for many centuries, a Red Light District!
You're worse than bloody Cohen! One second you want the area "free from countless coffeeshops and kamers", then saying we could "keep a few decent, bigger coffee shops", and we could "replace kamers with FKK style venues".

Peace

kichigai,

with respect, all the 'i hope the wallen is replaced by some fkk style venues' talk is a load of rubbish.

if you like fkk so much then by all means keep visiting them- they provide a good alternative to amsterdam and at times a higher level of service at a good price I am sure, but I along with a lot of other people don't want to spend 5 hours wondering around in a bathrobe eating stale crusty pizza between girls, surrounded by 50 other men doing the same.

Amsterdam is a special place, and the wallen is part of that. On the right night very few things come close to the atmosphere and buzz you get just walking around looking at all the gorgeous girls on offer. This is something unique which I have not seen to the same level in any other rld.

I hope the proposed changes go no further and the the city council keep their hands off the area for good.

Kichigai,

I can clearly follow your emotions, now this



I should say , switch to the World board with your FKK -
those few guys who really switched to the FKK scene are hardly seen on this board anymore , they switched to f.e. ISG , what is a pretty dull board IMO , they've had their best days in this board.

personally , I've seen the Saunaclub/FKK in many aspects , I'm on a regular base in NRW -
I'm glad I can find my value for money with the Wallengirls in Amsterdam as well , who are , observing them well , in many aspects quite exactly the same type as in FKK.

Maybe the Wallengirls together maintain a certain higher level of selfrespect than the (often) piggyfarm mentality in FKK.

But if that is exactly what you want , stay there !

I have to admit that my reaction Ichigai, was similar to JG's, a littley annoyed with the direction you seem to be advocating.

I can understand your logic somewhat and have always deferred to the Dutch on what they want to do with the city (after all, we are their guests), but as Wim implies you are somewhat transferring your own experience with RLD-FKK-etc... into what "should" be done in the Wallen.

For me, Amsterdam is the entire package and one which no place else can offer. Great people, interesting sights, amazing food, unique culture, the coffeeshops, the RLD, etc...

I do tend to focus my attention on the RLD and the smoke while actually there, but some of my fondest memories involve meals at Tempoe Doeloe when the owner sat down for an after dinner drink with me, making friends with various bartenders in hotels, discovering an amazing Man Ray exhibit at FOAM, etc...

From what I understand, Amsterdam for centuries has embodied this mix and as I follow what is going on there from a distance, expect and hope it will continue to do so at its essence...

There are a lot of empty and delapidated houses on the main RLD canals. Maybe if they were refurbished and turned into trendy cafes, restaraunts and clubs etc, then that would surely make a lot of money for the authorities, rather than letting them sit empty for decades.

I don't mind OZA and OZV getting a makeover, not at all. But leave the little alleys and side streets alone! You can't beat a bit of grimey mongering ;)

Are those fashion windows on Tromp and Stoof still not smashed in yet?

That's quite ridiculous. The opening lines are of how disappointing the place is because it's changing....for the worse, then the rest of the piece says how the changes should far more drastic and the mayor is right!!!!!

I think some-one has been on a little TOO much wacky baccy!!!!

it's not rediculous , but Kichigai mixes up the fact that he can't live with the changes to come in Amsterdam - where ever that may end ....

and the fact that he thinks he can get better value for money elsewhere .... !
which has nothing to do with his initial frustration.
Maybe when he adds things up.

you can forget an FKK German style in Amsterdam , that is something from Germany - only in Germany they manage to get that financed and licenced.
And nowhere else. As long as that may last.

NL and Belgium are particularly known for their RLD quarters in the citycentres.

I have been going to Amsterdam around 6 times a year for 16 years. I was there just 2 weeks ago. To me it was the same as any other February except for the fashion windows and a few less bridge trolls. There were loads of lovely ladies as usual and streets like Molensteeg actually had more than normal.
I have never been to a FKK and I am sure they are good but personally I like the anonymity of the redlight district. If it stays exactly as it is now I will be very happy indeed.

As long as you don't mind the sweat...:)

Hey...correct me if I am wrong..

The windows that are the " fashion windows " are locations that have been confiscated by the city due to the owner being a shady character/not being able to prove where he gets his money/ a tax debtor in arrears to the city, etc...

I do not have a problem with relocating the RLD, as long as it is relocated in the city center.

The city of Amsterdam claims that the RLD where it sits now, is worth a lot of money, and can be better off converted into shops..Isn't it in the governments best interest to have the RLD remain ?? Whether they like it or not, it does bring a huge amount of business to Holland.

Banning mushrooms and busting balls about picking between liquor and weed/hash in the coffeeshops is just plain wrong....

Best Regards

Smuler

Oh well, I did say discuss and discuss you did.

I suppose if you post your opinions on this board then you've got to expect to get shot down on several points. You all made some very interesting counter allegations.

Amsterman, I'm impressed, you almost hit the nail on the head except it wasn't too much waccy baccy but too much Marques de Grinon Tempranillo Rioja (2005). That's my excuse for getting things mixed up and I'm sticking to it, BUT, you all have to except that the Wallen is going to change. It's so obvious when you look at Mr Mayors tactics.

He softened the belly up by taking away a few windows, he dug one into the ribs by closing down Yab Yum. If you believe the latest rumours re La Casa Rossa, Bananabar and La Vie en Proost then he isn't slapping the Wallen around the face, he's going for the jugular. Once these are gone then I predict windows will fall like a deck of cards.

All the time he's sitting, watching and gauging the publics reaction. The only people who are upset are you, the mongerers and smokers, but I hate to tell you, your views don't count. The views that count are the money men prepared to pump millions into transforming the place, the Dutch families who live there and the investors waiting to move in, that's the views he's listening to.

Despite all this I'm sure he's conscious of the trade generated in the hotels, shops and bars. His problem is how to protect this trade, clean up the Red Light image and keep the investors happy. Note, I say "clean up" that doesn't mean do away with.

Despite what some of you think, I don't want to see abolishment of the Red Light Area but it will have to change it's shape/form.

There are cleverer guys on this board than me. Your task, should you choose to accept it, is, influence Mr Mayor by suggesting a scheme that keeps the spirit and the history of the Red Light alive without infringing on the new investors, occupiers and users of the 'New Wallen.'

Now then, Chateauneuf du Pape anyone?

Hi Kichi - we do not need yet another bottle of boring new style 'chateauneuf du pape', made to be drunk young, that ignores all the old stye and tradition of this very good traditional name, resulting in yet another, sort of flat (little tannin and/or acid), to be drunk without food with grandma on a Sunday afternoon, wine.

Such stuff is just too repeatable and forgetful. The FKK's are in some ways in this league, you pick the girl off the shelf, she's a tourist like you, although she's 'there' for a longer time than you, she may not speak your language, she's a number, she's a looker, she fucks you good and moves on to the next victim/client. You are at this time on Mars (or Venus), you've forgotten how you got there and actually do not care. If your viagra or youth is working well you do it again, and maybe yet again. The next day it is just a dream like she or they is/are - she/they are not people to you, and absolutely are you not to them.

The central BE/NL RLD districts offer real people offering a range of services up to the service level expected at the FKK level, and hey guess what; Julie or Sarah are there next week at the same address - real people that you can get to know, just like the girl or guy behind the bar at your favourite local, although admittedly a little bit different:-).

I like real people, I find them in the current Wallen, or in Antwerpen. I like sex with real people, sometimes I think I am one.

So you're right how do we keep this? Because I also agree with your cold assessement of Cohen's moves, and who he is and will be listening to. De Wallen is special precisely because the girls are in the middle of a 'normal' bustling city centre.

So how do we move on to the Wallen 'Super Tuscan', or better still the revived 'real' old style Chateauneuf?

That's my tuppence for now, I need to give my 1995 Bordeaux, and my nice Cubana a little more attention right now, unfortunately I'm a few hundred km fern from Tromp and St. Annen right now!

I know i may be off topic since this is the Amsterdam forum but i still want to make the comparison-again.(i said it on other threads on RLD changes)

greenhoff can back me on this since he said he,s been to the Honolulu downtown Hotel St. RLD in the 70,s 80,s.Like i said before it isn,t like the Wallen but there are ladies available on the streets,plenty of bars,military etc until early 90,s when the yuppie generation decided to clean it up with trendy shops,etc.

The end result up to now as i,m writing is this shit brought in a different clientale of people, residents who think their shit don,t stink in their million dollar condo,s that sprung up during the renovation period.All these assholes can do is just whine about anything they can think of, a few even tried unsuccessfully to complain of noise from 1 of a few techno clubs in the area.

What did this do to stop anything?Nothing,the girls are still avilable in another part of town-Waikiki or as escorts(which is the safest way to go to avoid cops)at $200-$500 vs $50 in that time.The techno parties went underground but going strong-tourists may have slight problem if they don,t know someone such as myself to get in due to them wanting to keep cops out though.Went to 1 Sat nite till Sunday nite,rolled almost the whole time finished at the home of one of the partiers.This chick said she,s still recovering from the good stuff and this is Friday already!

I just hope any changes they make in Amsterdam don,t lead to such situations where you have to go searching for what you want.Probably not since it,s legal in Holland,perhaps more action will be in prives like Park 118,good news i never heard of Cohen wanting to go after them!Those parties that are considered underground here i see is the norm in NL,i,ve gone to a few hearing of them on stations like Slam FM, XFM

IMHO When I was growing up in the 60's and 70's 7th and 8th aves in New York City were much the same way Amsterdam is. Everything was illegal but it was out in the open and a blind eye was turned more or less. It took years to clean up that area in NYC but they eventually pushed all the seedy building owners out by enforcing and enacting laws. Now we've got Polo, Gucci and Starbucks on every corner and it costs $350 to go to a brothel. When I was in AMS in November nothing had changed. In January I saw the dummies in the windows and I could see where this was going. Money will move in and push the rif raf out just as it did in NYC and a good portion of Amsterdam will look like Kalverstraat(which is, I believe, the street with all of the trendy stores). The people who control the district will either sell out or change their tenants to more profitable businesses because it will be cheaper to avoid the harrassment in the long run. In the short term it will be survival of the fittest with the diminished window space and the rent going up which is actually a good thing for the consumer as far as choice goes but at some point I think prices will go up to reflect the higher rents. Eventually the whole area will be taken over by corporations. It's inevitable once they get a foothold with their unlimited resources.

Whether I have a good time in an FKK, or with a window girl in Amsterdam's RLD, makes no difference to me. In both places you can have a nice relaxed time with a young and sexy girl. The most important is the girl, not the place.

Though I must admit, I become more FKK-orientated these days, more by curiosity and in search of variety of experiences. but I still love Amsterdam, the city itself, it's not only about weed and hookers :)

As a natural consequence of the central Amsterdam "makeover", and the "path of least resistance", would be the relocation of the RLD to the Singel and Pijp areas, and perhaps new areas might spring up. Have the changes in the Wallen produced a noticable effect on these areas? Is the quality very good there as a consequence? Also Alkmaar, has anyone noticed an increase in quality in the RLD there?

falco

On the positive side: Amsterdam's RLD is a damn sight older than Mr Cohen. I assume it has survived assaults by various interests over the centuries, perhaps a RLD historian can elaborate?

On the negative: We've seen these "cleanups" in other cities, and so have the moneygrubbers who are behind this move. They fully expect what worked elsewhere to work in Amsterdam too, and make them (even more) wealthy.

This seems to be a dual thread - one about looming changes to the RLD, and one about the personal Punter's Progress which seems typically to start in the RLD and then branch out via privees and FKKs and the redlight zones of other cities until it finds its way back in the end to accepting the RLD for itself. It is unique, sweat and all.

I'm currently on the FKK stage of the journey I think, but I have fond memories of the Walletjes, and could be tempted back (armed with info from this site) for the sheer audacity of being free to get stoned and get laid on demand just as openly, safely and easily as buying a beer and getting a haircut.

For no particular reason I recall one sunny Sunday afternoon biking from my apartment to a coffeeshop to score, then deciding on the spur of the moment to bike on into the RLD, visit the first pretty girl I saw and do her doggystyle. No hours of tramping around that day. Afterwards I biked thru the Vondelpark on my way home. I've forgotten the girls face (actually, I spent most of the time watching her ass), but I remember the way the sun dappled thru the fresh green leaves of the trees as I cycled past...

Currently I like the idea of hanging out all day in a bathrobe with girls who do BBBJ and don't balk at CIM, with saunas jacuzis and showers in between, but perhaps that novelty will also wear off.

Another thread somewhere here reported an older monger recalling wistfully the days when bareback was the norm in the RLD, how it was such a thrill to walk in off the street, stick your dick in a stranger and ejaculate inside her. I think he wasn't much into foreplay. Well those days are gone and I don't suppose anybody on this forum misses them much.

I'm sure Mayor Cohen and his cronies will do their worst, but I'm also optimistic that the RLD has survived worse and will outlast him.


Magoo